the debt ceiling fight is very, very different. it will -- if it goes to the crisis the republicans talk about creating, initiate a broad meltdown as regards our economy. and it runs the risk of putting people out of work. >> so many comparisons being made to what happened in the '90s under newt gingrich. the world economy is a lot different right now. i know your "nation" magazine has done a lot of reporting on this. who would be affected the most? who would survive and who wouldn't? >> well, small businesses would be devastated by this because you'd see a locking up of capital at a very, very rapid rate. and anybody who relies on a line of credit could end up in really big trouble -- farmers, working folks, anybody trying to get a mortgage. you would see a very, very quick impact. and the problem is also the instability of a situation like this, especially at a point when our economy is just beginning to get rolling, starting to really show some signs of moving in the right direction. >> sure. >> some key manufacturing hiring. th